Alive People, Alive Art

Ep. 80

  
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Recently Seth and Tsh talked about artists who aren’t alive literally but still are, in a way, through the great art they left us. As a compendium to that chat, here they share the artists who are currently very much alive and are making all our lives just a bit better through the art they continue to send out to the world.

The criteria? Artists who aren’t as commonly well-known, as well as people who aren’t out to make a name for themselves as an Influencer™ or ThoughtLeader™. They’re also some who aren’t even literal artists, per se, but they use their preferred medium like an artist would: curated, thoughtful, and with the receiver in mind.

Tsh: This is A Drink With a Friend, I’m Tsh Oxenreider.

Seth: And I’m Seth Haines.

Tsh: Seth, what are you drinking today?

Seth: As you know, I’m traveling through the great southwest. I’ve dipped my toes all the way down in the Rio Grande and now I’m all the way back up in Oklahoma City. I’m staying at a little bed and breakfast called The Bradford House. 

Tsh: Fancy.

Seth: Their tagline should be, pretty people eating pretty brunch. That really should be their tagline. I don’t mean that in any way insulting, everyone here is legitimately amazing. On my way back up from the cafe, I ordered a cup of coffee and it’s really good. I don’t know what it is, I don’t know what they’re brewing, don’t know how they’re brewing it, but I just know that I can actually flavors other than char.

Tsh: That’s a good sign for a hotel. 

Seth: That’s what I think. What are you drinking? 

Tsh: It is really basic. It’s HEB brand sparkling water. It makes a frequent appearance here but this time it’s passionfruit flavored which is somewhat new to me as of this year and I really like it and it might be up there as one of my more favorite flavors. It’s a million degrees so it’s become a daily ritual to have one or five of these. 

Seth: I totally understand that. Do you ever eat passionfruit, have you ever eaten passionfruit on its own?

Tsh: I have in Hawaii, which also sounds bougie and fancy but it wasn’t. It was really good but not like in my normal life. Have you?

Seth: No, I’ve never even seen a passionfruit.

Tsh: Right. It’s really good. I think I like more passionfruit-flavored things. In Hawaii, they call it lilikoi, I’ve had lilikoi butter. That’s like a spread, a jam. Super good but I think it’s actually because of all the sugar that’s added to it. Passionfruit is good.

Seth: When you take anything that is fruit-flavored and then you add a whole lot of sugar, it’s tasty.

Tsh: That’s basically what it was, and we were on vacation as one does.

Seth: Yeah, as one does. In fact, speaking of drinks, I drank my first soda type of beverage when I was down in Marfa, you know I was down in Marfa, Texas and we ate at Marfa Burrito, which is maybe the best burrito I’ve ever had in my life. I had an actual soda with it. I felt like how could you possibly eat this big amazing burrito without an incredible Mexican pineapple soda. 

Tsh: Nice. As you do when you’re in west Texas. I’m glad you had that experience. That’s cool. Two episodes ago, we did an episode about dead people whose art helps them live and art that we still appreciate in our day-to-day life and we went full range from actors all the way to musicians from hundreds of years ago. It got me thinking a little bit about, okay, I really do appreciate all these dead people but also alive people are pretty okay, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

Tsh: It’s easy for us to pendulum swing the other way sometimes and say old stuff is best and down with anything new and I appreciate the heart behind that but there’s still really great art and things being made out in the world and I for one forget that sometimes. To add another layer on that, I can be such a curmudgeon about social media but there are people who use it really well and who are not trying to make a name for themselves and become an influencer or thought leader and I think it might be fun to highlight some of our favorites. What are your thoughts about alive people and why you like them?

Seth: The truth is, you can’t talk with dead people. Right? You can’t go to church with dead people, you can’t sit at the bar with dead people. You can bring their books to the bar and feel like you’re sitting with a dead person or in your library or whatever. Dead people don’t talk back very well. It’s just a fact of life or perhaps maybe we should say a fact of death. Here’s why I like living people because they’re alive.

Tsh: Yeah. 

Seth: It’s just that simple. I do love the artistic conversation that you can have with someone and as much as I and we have talked about not liking social media, and I do actually think it’s probably one of the single largest influencers in the coming downfall of the world as we know it and the impending dystopian reality of tomorrow, there is a good side of it. The good side is you really can find these people that you really appreciate what they’re doing whether it’s artistic or just from a hobby perspective, even. Or whether what they’re talking about, thinking about, doing on their farm. You can find these people and interact with them and there is something that can be beautiful about that if it’s done right. 

Tsh: Right, exactly. I think you and I have experienced that. We continually work on “curated our feed” for the sake of appreciating these people more. I for one am grateful for the internet as a writer because it is afforded me the ability to do what I do so it’s good to not disparage everything about social media. It’s just hard to find those, sometimes it feels like looking for a needle in a haystack to find the people out there that you would really connect with. We thought it’d be fun today to highlight those that we have found and maybe our listeners can start following them or appreciate their work or buy their books or listen to their music or whatever it is. We’re using this term really broad, artists, because we also just mean people who are doing good things in the world right now. 

Seth: I think everything is art. I think every expression of human skill and human creativity is a form of art. We’ve talked about this before. Kyle may not be a classical “artist”, your Kyle, but the things that he does with his hands and remodeling and building and woodworking and all those things, that is absolutely a skill, a craft, an art. I know attorneys who write amazingly clean, thoughtful, logical pieces of writing in their briefs that are just amazing and that’s a form of art. We just need to expand that definition a little bit probably today as we talk and just recognize it. All the people we’re talking about are doing something creative, something artistic. 

Tsh: That’s right. That’s the whole point of this whole show, sacramentality. Finding the divine in everything. 

Seth: That’s right. That creative spark.

Tsh: Why don’t you start us off. Tell me somebody who is currently living that you appreciate.

Seth: I’m probably going to have a lot of Instagram. I love photographs. I love photography, I can get lost in them. My first find is Lesley Villareal. Her screen name is @lesleybrown. She is a photographer based in Marfa, Texas. 

Tsh: What?

Seth: To come to find out, in your neck of the wood, at least in Texas. I found her because I was following some Marfa hashtags while I was in Marfa and some of her photographs are hilarious. She’s made these little Marfa memes and so she has one with this beautiful cloud coming over the plains with a rainbow and the words at the top are in that Prada style like the Prada store that’s out in Marfa? 

Tsh: Yep.

Seth: It says, “Marfa, incredibly mediocre.” 

Tsh: [laugh] Yeah.

Seth: I think that’s hilarious. Then there’s another one that says, it’s a beautiful landscape of a mountain and a cow and the big words are, “Marfa, it sucks pretty good.” 

Tsh: [laugh] that’s funny.

Seth: I will say, the photography is amazing, the idea is hilarious because as we talked about before jumping on to record, Marfa is sort of a meta-joke on it’s itself. It’s fascinating and cool but when I was there this week, a lot of it was closed. The galleries were closed. It was really just like being in a southwest Texas town where the roads weren’t very well taken care of and outside of the burritos, it’s was hot and had the feel of art without any of the substance. 

Tsh: Sure. It’s a pretty good way to describe Marfa.

Seth: I think @lesleybrown is killing it. I think she’s doing a great job. She’s capturing the essence of Marfa vise vie Instagram.

Tsh: I’m looking at her feed right now and she’s got one of the Prada store and it says, “Dumb, but we still drove to it.” It’s so true. 

Seth: And I did. It’s dumb and I still drove to it and I captured my early morning shot of it and posted it because that’s what photographers do. 

Tsh: That’s right. 

Seth: They go to the dumb stuff and they post it. 

Tsh: I love it.

Seth: What’s your first?

Tsh: My first, I have some Instagram people as well along with some Twitter people but I’m going to go with someone who I don’t think is really on social media or he used to be but then got off for good reasons but he is doing some great art and he does have a podcast. This is James Acaster. Do you know who this is?

Seth: No.

Tsh: Okay. James Acaster is a British comedian. He’s got a fantastic Netflix special so we will link to that. He’s got a podcast whose name alludes me at the moment but we’ll add that to the show notes as well. I can’t speak to it though because I’ve never really listened to it. He is so funny and is so weird. Genuinely bizarre and that’s why our family likes him a lot because we are drawn to the absurd and he is very absurd and so he’s not for everyone. You watch him and you think, I think I know that guy from middle school who was just really odd but seemed really confident in himself and didn’t care that he was the weird kid in class and now he’s managed to make a living from it. I can’t quite describe beyond that. I heard him say once that his dad whenever someone complimented him on the success and talent of his son, his dad’s first reaction was, “Well, he’s not for everyone.” The fact that even his dad says that I think says something about him. I’m not selling it very well but he’s great.

Seth: Is this the guy who on his Netflix special, he does the first part of his set on his knees for no reason, no explained reason.

Tsh: Yep. There is a reason if you know it well enough. Yes, he starts it off, and then without missing a beat the timer on his watch goes off, he taps it and he stands up and continues with no problem at all, no breaking of the flow. He talks about why elsewhere. You just have to know. That’s what makes him great because he’s got his inside jokes with his diehard fans and he’s not going to explain them, you have to seek them out, the explanation. I think that’s what makes him great. I had a kid who’s on the spectrum, the autistic spectrum, he really resonates with James Acaster’s humor because it’s so absurd and it’s kind of literal. Expect quirky, but I really, really like him.

Seth: That’s awesome. When I first saw him, I thought, he just did twenty minutes or whatever on his knees. That’s kind of weird.

Tsh: It is kind of weird. I’ll also put a link in the show notes to a three-minute clip that’s on YouTube that I think showcases his best stuff. He does this bit about the British Museum that is so spot on and well done. I’ll add that as well. If you want to get a taste before diving in.

Seth: I do think he’s hilarious. We watched a lot of it and then we had to go to bed. We laughed hard. Our sides hurt. We laughed hard. I do wonder, again, whether this is the case of Tsh being an Anglophile which puts him over the top?

Tsh: It probably is because he’s got a uniquely British style of human, very dry and self-detracting which is my flavor of humor.

Seth: I dig it.

Tsh: How about you? Who’s next?

Seth: I’m going to go back to the well of Instagram. I am an Ozark person, an Ozark man. I love the Ozarks. I love my state. I don’t love my entire state, to be very clear. I think if anyone’s honest, that they would say that about their own state. Not every part of your state is awesome, so shut up, man. Which is sort of how I feel about Texas.

Tsh: Yeah?

Seth: You don’t really love all, there’s no way you can love all of Texas. It’s too big. 

Tsh: It’s way too big.

Seth: It’s way too diverse and different…anyway, whenever people are like, oh, I love my state, my state is the best. I’m like, come one, there are pockets you hate. But there is an account on Instagram called @wonderfularkansas and it’s exactly how it sounds, wonderful Arkansas. What they do is they highlight photographers from around the state. There will be photographs from these regions of the state that I’m tempted to say, hold no beauty or hold nothing worth seeing. These parts of the state where I dismiss them and now highlight these photographs and when you look at them, oh, actually we live in a really beautiful state, even some of these areas in the delta or southeast Arkansas or all these places that I typically tend to write off, they highlight photographs from there and it gives me a really appreciate for my state. The other thing that it does, it actually introduces me to photographers in my community and I think that’s really important. That’s a piece that we’ve lost with all of the social media connection is who is doing the stuff that you love in your actual physical community? Just the connection there that I’ve been able to make over the last month or so as I’ve followed this account has been pretty cool. 

Tsh: That’s what really fun about even just using the tag location feature on Instagram is when you start finding people in your area. I would imagine that’s even better because you’ve got the combination of local plus artistic lens through which they are viewing their location. 

Seth: Not every one of the photographs is my favorite but it just showcases again the people of the state who are trying to do really good work. My guess is, every state has something similar. There’s some photography feed from your state or from your region where you live in a big state like Texas, I bet, that would just really help you connect with and find the people who are doing amazing work in the neck of your woods. 

Tsh: That’s a good segue, kind of, to what I was going to mention next so I’ll just go ahead and mention it. My Substack subscribers got this week a new WRLD at Home installment, I’m dusting that back off and starting the series up again. For those who don’t know, it’s a series I do for my paying supporters where we talk about something to watch, read, listen, or do to learn more about the world without leaving your home. The world is spelled WRLD, watch, read, listen, do. I just mention to them, to you guys, an episode of Rick Steves’ podcast. Talk about basic, in a way. Talk about old school. I use to really side-eye Rick Steves because I wanted to be this cool, off the beaten track traveler and he, to me, was the epitome of cheese ball dad with his polo shirts and his quirky voice and the way he explained things. But I don’t know if it’s just the older I’ve gotten or the less I care about being cool. The more I’ve really grown to appreciate Rick Steves, and he does a lot more than just his PBS show. He has a really good podcast. He does a lot of travel talks on different venues where he talks about the why of travel and not just so much go to this cafe in this town in France. Rick Steves, I really appreciate his artful approach to travel because of how he has a learner’s posture, he doesn’t act like he knows it all even though he has been literally guiding trips since the seventies. He does know it all. But he still has this really great learner’s posture. He is surprisingly laid back and chill and open and curious and I really like that. I listened to one of his episodes this morning and it instantly put me in a better mood. The reason I even listened to it was because I was in a bad mood this morning and he made me appreciate where I was in the here and now. That’s one thing that I’ve really have grown to like about his work, especially during the pandemic. At first, I avoided it thinking that’s going to be the worse thing for me because all I want to do is leave town and I can’t or go to Europe and I can’t. But he actually really incorporates his mindset to wherever he lives. He lives in Seattle. In this particular episode, he and his guest were talking about ways to find European little nooks and crannies in the United States and mentioned some and there was one, two hours from here called Fredericksburg, Texas which we’ve been to many times. It’s a weird German enclave in the middle of nowhere. It made me appreciate where I lived which is hard to do in the summer in Texas. If he can make me appreciate Texas in the summer then that means he’s doing his job. Rick Steves is my next person and I will link to his things that are maybe less known than his PBS show. 

Seth: Can we talk about his ambiguous accent? Where is he from? 

Tsh: [laugh] I know. He’s born and raised in Seattle. In fact, what’s weird about him is even though he travels all over the place, apparently, he lives really close to where he grew up near his parents. But his grandfather was from Norway. He grew up hearing his grandfather speak Norweigein so I don’t know what else to say about that other than he just does have a weird accent, I know. 

Seth: It’s weird. Sometimes I’ll watch him when he’s in Ireland or whatever, and I’m like, oh, he sounds Irish. Then I’ll watch him when he’s in a Scandinavian country and I’m like, oh, he’s Scandinavian. Then I’ll watch him when he’s in America and I’m like, no, he’s got to be American. Is he Canadian? It’s so confusing. 

Tsh: I know. He’s nice like a Canadian. But he’s just plain ole Pacific Northwest American, whatever that means. He does have a weird…maybe it’s because he’s traveled so much that he’s picked up on speech cadences? I don’t know if that’s a thing?

Seth: We should ask him. We should have him on the show and ask him. 

Tsh: That would be fun. There are crazier things that have happened.

Seth: Squad goals. 

Tsh: There we go. Who’s next on your list of living artists?

Seth: This week while I was down in Texas, I was talking with Winn Collier and John Blase, two of my very good friends, about writing. We wandered into the topic of sentimentality. We began to talk actually about, do you remember Thomas Kinkade, the old painter? 

Tsh: Yes.

Seth: We started talking about his work and why does it make us want to burn everything and kill all hope and die? It’s awful. It’s terrible work. I’m sorry. If anybody out there is a huge Thomas Kinkade person, then you now know my opinion. If you need to edit that out Kyle, feel free to.

Tsh: [laugh]

Seth: Anyway, we were talking about that and the idea there is that all of that playing to sentimentality without any of the grittiness or the texture of life is actually over the top, it’s too saccharine, it’s too much. That’s why it’s so cloying, right? It’s just so sentimental without any real texture. It spawned this conversation about the great cathedrals of the world and how in the great cathedrals of the world you do sometimes have these weird little naked baby cherubim but you also always have God on the judgment seat. You have sinners dangled over the fires of hell. We were talking about how do you do this in writing? Is it possible to preserve some of that sentimentality, which is actually a human need? It’s a need for hope. Is there a way to preserve some of that and do it in the right way and it got me thinking about a book that I really, really love. It’s by Garth Risk Hallberg, it’s called City on Fire. You may remember that I was a huge advocate of this book in 2015 and 2016. It was a hit-miss with the critics for two reasons. 1) It’s sprawling. There’s a point in the book where it degrades into chaos. 2) It has a really good ending. The ending is maybe sentimental, a touch sentimental. As I read the book and when I got to the end, I thought, that is the ending that I needed. Then I started thinking about Sunil Yapa’s, The Heart is a Muscle the Size of a Fist, and again, I was thinking about a book with them, I was saying, the ending really nailed it. It was the ending that I needed and it was a touch sentimental. When I was thinking about those two books and how the authors deliver this sentimental moment, it’s not Hallmark-y, I thought, man I really appreciate both of those authors because they were able to really pull together something that was hopeful and true and beautiful and I think humanly true out of utter chaos. I really appreciate Garth Risk Hallberg. He’s going to be my next living person. I hope he writes another book soon because I’d be interested to see if he continues that. He really just pulled out something beautiful and sentimental but something that wasn’t cloying. That is art.

Tsh: I love that. That’s really good. As you were talking, I was trying to find, I saw a really great tweet today. I thought it was a retweet from John Blase but I guess not. I don’t know who did it. It had to do with sentimentality and why we’re so taken by it and why it sears us so wrong. It has mostly to do with this idea that we pine for a past that actually never happened. I thought it was really spot on, this idea that’s it’s okay to reminisce and long for an ideal of what should be in our world but whenever we pretend the real isn’t there, that’s when it gets wrong and think that’s why Kinkade’s art is so bad because there’s no nuance. I think there’s room for sentimentality when it’s well placed. 

Seth: I think that’s right. It would not surprise me if this is something that John talked about or spoke about or wrote about or tweeted or Instagramed because we were having that conversation. The thing that I love about John and the thing that I’ve always loved about his poetry is that it provides the sentimental hooks that you need. When you think about the word, sentiment, what you’re saying is, it helps me to feel. That is not a bad thing.

Tsh: It’s not.

Seth: It’s just when it helps you or it tries to make you feel too much. That’s when it goes wonky because it becomes sort of a Frankenstein’s monster of itself. 

Tsh: I want to just toss out. He didn’t make my list, but I think he needs to be honorary, John Blase is really good to have on this list. I’m just going to include him in the show notes even though he’s an actual friend of yours. His poetry is spot-on, especially for our unique time and place in history as Americans in the 21st century. 

Seth: Building on that, I think his Twitter feed is gold.

Tsh: So good.

Seth: @johnblase. Is it just @johnblase?

Tsh: Looks like it.

Seth: @johnblase. A great follow. He’s someone who can really tackle the issues of the day with deep meaning and truth and nuance without being a jerk.

Tsh: Yeah.

Seth: Who’s your next one?

Tsh: My next one is really funny because I see that John actually tweeted about her but she was on my list anyway. The Nigerian/American writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Have you ever read anything from her?

Seth: No.

Tsh: So good. She’s one of those writers that makes me angry because of how good she is that I, as a writer, just think how does she wield words that well to say exactly what needs to be said in such good economy? She’s not flowery. She’s such a stellar writer. A few years ago, in my Substack community, we read a book together every summer that’s kind of armchair travel-y, so we read one of her earliest, it might have been her earliest novel, Purple Hibiscus. It takes place in Nigeria. It was one of those that was fiction but apparently, it rang a little semblance of truth in her own life. It’s about her Catholic father who was a hard-nose. She actually had a great relationship with her parents, but it’s about the protagonist's father. So well written even though it was a bit heavy for the summer. I’ve since read several other of her works. I think one of her well-known ones is called, Americanah. She’s written Half of a Yellow Sun, was one of hers. She also just has really great short stories and short essays around the internet. She’s a regular contributor on the New Yorker. She’s got a great Ted talk called, “The Danger of Single Story”, where she really digs into this idea of tropes that we hear like what is a Nigerian like? It really hits home to this idea of when you’ve met one person you’ve met one person. I just really like how she thinks. She’s either our age or a little bit younger, I can’t remember. She oozes wisdom to where she just seems so much wiser for her years. She’s well-spoken. She’s got a great listening voice. She’s articulate. She’s a great person to support through buying her books and taking in her stuff. I don’t think she’s on social media as far as I know, which is probably why she’s really good at what she does because she invests her time and energy in that kind of stuff. Read one of her books. I recommend her highly. She’s a great writer. 

Seth: Here’s my final call. This is a global call. One of the things that we talked about earlier was just maybe artists and people who aren’t “thought leaders” trademark. People who aren’t out there trying to build a platform, they’re not trying to make themselves famous, they’re not chasing ego, they just simply are what they are. I know we’ve talked about Heather King before but I’m going to say she’s got to be one of mine. Not just her writing. Her writing is really good. She exists in this Catholic non-fiction space. She’s done stuff before. She did some stuff for National Public Radio before and knows how to tell a story. It’s just her whole vibe. If you read her books but then if you go to her website and if you follow her on Instagram and on Instagram she’s @heatherking.desirelines. There’s something about her overall presence, esthetic, the way that she writes, just her overall vibe that I just feel like, man, she’s doing something right. Just from a human perspective, she’s just doing something right. I don’t feel like she’s in this for anything other than to tell what is true and to tell what is beautiful, to show what’s beautiful, to show what’s good. There’s something about that really just attracts me and I love it. I love her work. I love her on Instagram. I love her books. I love her articles. I think she’s phenomenal. Everyone should read her stuff and follow her. 

Tsh: I’m going to follow her now, right after this. I have not been following her and you keep bringing her up so I’ll take that as a sign. 

Seth: Go to her Instagram. Just 485 followers. 

Tsh: Nice.

Seth: She’s not trying to do something huge. But even when you just look at the esthetic of her page, the layout of it and you just scroll down, oh, she’s unashamedly in love with saints. She’s unashamedly in love with the southwest and with art. The way that she’s pulling all of this together in a very authentic and genuine way. Even sometimes, she’s got a photograph that’s her last photograph, which I think was posted today, it’s not like she’s out there trying to take some artistic photo I don’t think but the way that she’s framed it, the colors that she noticed, it’s actually artistic. It’s just in her and I love that. 

Tsh: I love that, too. That’s really cool. To wrap this up, my final one is not going to be anything deep at all but he really does make my day better and it’s a Twitter follow. That’s running theme with me is I like making Twitter a place that I like to be at and it is a guy named Boze Herrington. He’s got a couple of accounts but the one I’m thinking of is @sketchesbyboze which he’s currently calling, “Owl! At the Library”. His little bio just simply says, “Quality tweets for the old soul. Fairy-tales, beauty, wholesome whimsy.” I think that’s exactly what he does. You don’t follow him for pithy thoughts that are hot takes on the culture right now. You follow him because you want to be, maybe this is reflective of this idea of sentimentality, a certain sort of sentimentality that is absolutely not cloying at all. It actually brings tears to my eyes sometimes because it’s just so wholesome and innocent and yet really niche and you have to know books I think to follow what he’s talking about sometimes. I’m going to try to find some here that are just at the top that I really love. Let’s see. He says, “Whenever you’re feeling sad about your life remember that at least your parents didn’t name you Eustance Clarence Scrubb.” I really love this one, “It’s funny how at midnight on her fortieth birthday, a woman stops getting catcalled by strangers and starts solving crimes in the village.”

Seth: [laugh]

Tsh: So well done. “Boys, stop trying to impress a woman with chocolate and flowers, and instead anonymously gift her a country house with a generous stipend so she can pen the books that will make her immortal.” Sometimes he does say really spot-on things that speak to our culture. In this one, he says, “We spend so much time dissecting books in school that we can easily forget why they exist in the first place: to thrill and shock and enchant us. Every kid needs to experience the rush of picking up a book and being captured by it. Discovering reading is a joyful thing.” I couldn’t agree more. He’s a great follow and I’m glad I do. There you go.

Seth: That’s awesome. I follow him also and take great pleasure in it. 

Tsh: Alright, those are living artists that we really appreciate. They’re not trying to make a name for themselves, they just do what they do and they do it well. I would love to hear from listeners who they really appreciate that are possibly doing the opposite of what “they” say you should do on social media. Fill us in on social media, I guess, who it is that you follow. 

Seth: I think we had a bunch of great pics today, I’ll tell you, as a result of that, I don’t think we need to share what we’re reading, watching, or listening to this week because it should be pretty evident what we’re reading, watching, or listening to that has brought a little bit of truth, goodness, and beauty to our lives.

Tsh: Yeah. Honestly, these people are pretty much on my list right now. 

Seth: Agreed. Let’s shut her down.

Tsh: Alright, it’s time to wrap this up. You can find this episode, as well as all episodes, at adrinkwithafriend.com. If you like what we’re bringing to your week, would you kindly go leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts? The better a show is reviewed, the more places like Apple and Spotify show it to potential new listeners. So if you’d like us to keep doing what we’re doing, you can help by leaving a quick review. We really appreciate it. You can find me and all my work, especially my newsletter and books, at tshoxenreider.com. Seth, where can people find you?

Seth: sethhaines.com

Tsh: Music for the show is by Kevin MacLeod, editing is by Kyle Oxenreider, and Caroline TeSelle is our transcriber and assistant extraordinaire. I’m Tsh Oxenreider with Seth Haines, and we’ll be back here with you soon. Thanks for listening.